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mightyqdawg
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Excessive visual noise using RGB and Framemeister

07 Jan 2020, 02:04

PCEngine model: Turbografx-16
Power Supply: original NEC (Model HES-ACA-01)
Video cable: Genesis model 2 RGB EuroSCART Packapunch Pro Cable 2m from RetroGamingCables.co.uk
SD card brand: Samsung EVO
Region modded?: No.
SSDS3 revision B (purchased 12/2019)
In Game Trigger enabled in the Options menu? No.
Any other details specific to your setup: Using RGB through Framemeister. No SCART switch.

Problem or Issue: Very noticeable noise in video. The amount of video noise seems excessive given all the videos and on-line images I've seen, especially for a Rev. B board. The noise seems worse for certain games than others and is especially noticeable as white/gray sparkles in a diagonal pattern on black backgrounds. No such noise exists when using the same RGB cable and Framemeister with a Genesis 2.

Looking for advice as I was not expecting nearly this amount of visual noise with the Rev B board. I'm aware I'm using a not-recommended SD card brand (Samsung). I can try a different brand, but I'd be shocked if that is what was causing video noise.

Thanks.

--
Eric

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Todd
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Re: Excessive visual noise using RGB and Framemeister

07 Jan 2020, 02:41

I would start with removing the SSDS3 and cleaning the contacts on the expansion connector of your TG16. We’ve seen that cause video issues.
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cybercylon
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Joined: 02 Dec 2018, 16:39

Re: Excessive visual noise using RGB and Framemeister

07 Jan 2020, 05:01

In my setup, I have diagonal noise problem with even revision B when using the RGB connection on a Framemeister with a SCART cable from Retro Access. I don't see this noise if I used the D-term connection and an HD retrovision Genesis 2 cable. The drawback there is that the component input for the Framemeister has it's own issues and the colors are still crushed,

I have a much cleaner picture using an OSSC. It is fairly noise free aside from the jail bars (which is due to the console).

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Mobiusstriptech
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Re: Excessive visual noise using RGB and Framemeister

07 Jan 2020, 16:17

The Framemeister ADC is also prone to generating very noticeable visual noise. It's an issue with the Framemeister and not something that can be remedied unfortunately. That's one of the reasons that many people have been migrating over to the OSSC, aside from price tag and support for first time buyers. I know when i was doing initial testing for the FU-RGB, I bought an OSSC to rule out the visual noise we were seeing as unrelated to the SSDS3 itself.

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mightyqdawg
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Re: Excessive visual noise using RGB and Framemeister

08 Jan 2020, 02:32

Thank you for the responses so far. The easiest thing I can do is try to clean contacts , so I'll be trying that first. (Any recommendations on this? Are we talking alcohol or metal polish?) In the future I will also try alternative cabling options and the OSSC. I am aware of certain benefits of the OSSC, but was hoping I could hold off on purchasing one for a little longer, so that option will likely have to wait the longest.

Though I'd prefer if the visual noise was reduced it is certainly something I can live with for awhile when just playing games. I was hoping to get it cleaned up a bit so I could do some video capture, but that's a secondary use case.

--
Eric

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Mobiusstriptech
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Joined: 13 Apr 2018, 15:41

Re: Excessive visual noise using RGB and Framemeister

08 Jan 2020, 20:00

Metal polish should basically never be used. You want IPA or deoxit. Something that isn't going to remove material or leave a residue.

If you have the means to upload a video of the issue you are seeing, that would be most helpful. There really aren't reports of issues with the video quality on the Rev B. It's pretty rock solid and matching what is seen with a standard PC Engine or Duo and RGB. When I made scope plots back in 2018, the signals barely had any movement to them. So there really shouldn't be much outside of a specific console/cable/setup issue.

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mightyqdawg
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Re: Excessive visual noise using RGB and Framemeister

09 Jan 2020, 07:05

I have cleaned the expansion port pins using isopropyl alcohol (91%) with no improvement. I have also now tested the SSDS3 with two different TG-16 units and the results are the same.

I also captured video of four different scenarios:
1.) SSDS3 menu without any micro SD card inserted in the SSDS3. Video cabling was SSDS3 RGB via Framemeister.
2.) Actual System Card 2.0 in TG-16 card slot (not using SSDS3 except for video output). Video was SSDS3 RGB via Framemeister.
3.) Dracula X from SSDS3 microSD card. Video was SSDS3 RGB via Framemeister.
4.) Dracula X from SSDS3. Video was SSDS3 Composite via Framemeister.

The video is here:

I am not an expert at video issues, but I imagine that between my capture device, my rendering software and Youtube processing that much of the image fidelity has been compromised. However, there are a few things to note:

1.) The video noise is noticeably *worse* when running games off the SSDS3 itself. Using an actual HuCard (or even an Everdrive) results in cleaner video. This suggests that the noise is indeed related to the SSDS3 itself. This drop in quality may not be apparent in the video (for the reasons I noted above), but I've provided video of each scenario just in case. These are the first two scenarios shown in the video linked above (each are 30 seconds, see video description for details).
2.) The video noise is especially noticeable during certain sections of Dracula X. Take note of the noise in any black sections of the screen and the gray clouds in the upper right when the castle is shown. I have provided video of the same scene captured with Composite for comparison. (Again, see video description for details.)

Because I do not trust that the video noise will be evident in the video I've provided, I'm also including a snapshot of my TV screen. This is from the upper right of screen during the SSDS3 menu. The left half in the image is the right side of the video output. The right side of the picture is the "overscan" or "letterboxed" area due to a 4:3 image showing up on my 16:9 TV. You can see that in this area, where there is no video output, the screen is a nice pure black. The left side has the "sparkles" that are evidence of the overall visual noise problem I'm experiencing.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Mh3gaR4yz9KdThL8A

Again, any (further) thoughts anyone has on how to remedy this would be appreciated. I do not doubt that there are flaws and/or limitations to my setup, but the fact that the extent of the visual noise *worsens* when running games from the SSDS3 itself suggests that there is something more going on here.

--
Eric

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mightyqdawg
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Re: Excessive visual noise using RGB and Framemeister

09 Jan 2020, 16:00

I'm embarrassed I did not think of this originally: I've put the raw files from my video capture device (*.mp4) in a Google Drive shared folder. It is much easier to see the video noise issue I'm having with these raw captures.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

I appreciate any time and assistance anyone is willing to give. Thank you.

--
Eric

cybercylon
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Joined: 02 Dec 2018, 16:39

Re: Excessive visual noise using RGB and Framemeister

10 Jan 2020, 04:56

I took a look at the videos from the goole drives link.

I remember those diagonal lines of noise when I was using my Framemeister's RGB input. There were also other noise problems with earlier revisions of the SSDS3. The fixes implemented in revision B helped with that, but those diagonal lines noise are inherent to the Framemeister. I don't know why it is more apparent with the PC engine/TG16, but someone else may have an answer to that. There could be something that is odd about the RGB output from the PC engine/TG16 as I don't see them with my SNES.

It is interesting that you noticed less noise when using an Everdrive. I noticed the same thing as well. The diagonal lines were fainter when running a HuCard game from the Everdrive vs the SSDS3.

That said, if this is an inherent problem with the Framemeister ADC, then nothing will completely make them go away. For all consoles that I have tested, the Framemeister also crushes the colors (try the color bars on the 240p test suite to see what I mean).

As I said, those lines weren't really visible if I used a HD Retrovision Genesis cable and the Framemeister's D-term input (which is component in-- you would need an additional adapter. Got that on amazon where one end is a D-term plug and the other end is component in), This may help. I am sure the noise is still there, but in my setup, they are not pronounced. It is possible with your set up. it might not help.

I finally ended up getting an OSSC. When you are ready for one, get it from the source (videogameperfection.com) and not a cheap one on eBay. It is an open source product, so technically anyone can make them, but they may not be made with the same care,,, plus some even go as far as to use videogameperfection's and print materials.

That doesn't necessarily mean that the Framemeister is useless. There can be incompatibilities between the OSSC and your TV and/or capture card. Sometimes you can only line double to 480p, and with some capture cards/devices like the Elgato HD60 series, there is no signal. However, a Framemeister can fix that issue when you pass through the OSSC's output using a Framemeister. It must do something to fix the signal, and since the it's ADC is not involved when doing a pass through, you won't get that noise. (Note that I would not recommend playing games with that Frankenstein set up... just for capture if needed),

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mightyqdawg
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Re: Excessive visual noise using RGB and Framemeister

10 Jan 2020, 20:32

Thanks cybercylon.

I already have a component adapter for the D-term input, so I think my next step will be to try the HD Retrovision component cable. (I'd been thinking of grabbing one anyway, and I'm sure it'll be handy to have around.)

I appreciate the advice on the OSSC, and will keep it in mind going forward.

--
Eric

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